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Report 149
Report #149 Skillset: Wicca Skill: Toadcurse Org: Moondancers Status: Completed Mar 2009 Furies' Decision: We will halve the rate at which toads dodge. Problem: Wiccans are the only class without an actual instakill, as toadcurse, as pointed out to me many times, is not an instakill. As such, since it is our 'almost-instakill', it should be made slightly easier on the wiccan to actually achieve the kill condition of stomping, while not removing the chance for the toad to escape. To cast toadcurse leaves the wiccan off equilibrium for 4 seconds at base, giving your target the time to move away 2 rooms at current, and a dodged stomp leaves the wiccan off balance for a short amount of time. Dodging seems to happen more often than not, even with the previous change of reduced chance to dodge. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Remove dodging from toads and slow their movement down. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Knock the toaded person off balance or equilibrium briefly after being toaded, as well as remove dodging from toads. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: Player Comments: ---on 3/7 @ 04:01 writes: This is acceptable if Moondancer passive mana drain is lowered considerably. The numbers (and this problem) have already been fully detailed on the forums at http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=17021&view=findpost&p=614716. Making Toadcurse even more into an assured instakill means that the manadraining *has* to be lowered to be more in line with Guardians. The only solution I see acceptable to the "dodging problem" is to standardize it so all toads have the same dexterity and the same dodge rate. ---on 3/7 @ 04:02 writes: Erm, I mean "Wiccan passive mana drain," since Shadowdancers have even more passive with the Night-specific fae. ---on 3/7 @ 11:34 writes: Standardizing toad dexterity and dodge rate does sound like a simpler solution ---on 3/11 @ 21:18 writes: After further thought, just removing dodging by itself is fine as well ---on 3/11 @ 21:56 writes: Still disagree with that, due to Wiccans having much more efficient (and effective) passive mana drain, on top of similar-quality active drains. ---on 3/11 @ 23:58 writes: Banshee by itself isn't even close to being an 'efficient' mana drain unless the wiccan actively works for it. It seems your efficient mana drain belief comes from SD's + the lovable succumb, I certainly can keep up with MD's active drain far easier than I can with a SD's passive one. ---on 3/12 @ 02:57 writes: Effective or not, it is a step above the mana drain that guardians can pull off, making toadcurse an easier condition to reach than an absolve or wrack as guardians only have an active drain. Icewalls also stop toads from leaving the location, I don't see a reason for the dodging to be removed entirely. ---on 3/12 @ 03:18 writes: Guardians just somewhat recently (in the past few months) had their mana drains upgraded. Amissio is now more effective than moondance lash, unless I'm remembering my formulas wrong. Leech also just got upgraded recently. ---on 3/12 @ 19:00 writes: Banshee was also upgraded significantly lately insofar as the mana drain it gives is based off the target's maximum mana instead of the current mana to match the increased mana drain that guardians received. ---on 3/13 @ 20:37 writes: Ciaran and I did testing a month or so back after the leech buff and his ability to drain mana far outweighed mine even with the change. You cannot just cite lash as if you don't have a full fae draining more mana and the ease of sleeplocks for wiccans. The offense is easily done and the execution works fine, I don't really think Wiccans need this change. ---on 3/13 @ 23:14 writes: The numbers are in the thread referenced earlier, Sarrasri. Wiccans are far above and beyond Guardians at mana draining due to the passive addition of these sources, *along with* their active drain. ---on 3/14 @ 06:11 writes: How many of you have actually compared the mana drains from Shadowdancers and Moondancers? I know the other day I sat at my nexus, in the tree, and lashed myself with all available mana draining fae for about 5 minutes, not to toad myself at all. The mana draining issue is with Shadowdancers, not Moondancers. The way you lot are going on, you'd think I could just stand there draining mana and get the toad, which is untrue. I'll gladly help you see my mana drain by using it on you, if any of you would just ask, which you have not. You're assuming a Moondancer's drain is as good as a Shadowdancers. Also, at the very least, I am seeking just to have dodging removed from toads, however, since toadcurse and toads is one of the most complained about skills to me, I thought I'd try to streamline it a bit, without actually killing the "get away" option, as it still remains with both my suggestions. ---on 3/14 @ 06:12 writes: As a note, when I tested Moondancer drain on myself, I was undeffed and without a torc, so nothing was affecting the drain from that. ---on 3/14 @ 06:15 writes: Also, Moondancer fae that help contribute to a passive drain are only pixie and banshee. Pixie because of insomnia, which that drain can be avoided through the use of merbloom. I also tried it with metawake on for a while as well. ---on 3/14 @ 06:39 writes: As a note, the forum thread you mentioned seems to just support the fact that SD's, not MD's are the ones with the 'crazy' manadrains ---on 3/14 @ 14:29 writes: Regarding your testing, was it daytime? Did you have your sprite? ---on 3/15 @ 00:52 writes: I didn't check the time of day, however, no I did not have my sprite. I think it went from day to night while I was doing it. ---on 3/15 @ 03:40 writes: Also did you use your fae to drain insomnia (250 mana to put back up), or did you perform any other offense to attempt to put them asleep? Did you take into account the near necessary mana drain of metawake that is needed during a fight with a Wiccan. Its already been discussed on the forums that constantly spamming a mana drain attack should not account for being able to instantly manakill the person and as it stands guardians definitely cannot do this and Wiccans have it easy with the simple, almost instant (and possibly instant in some cases) sleeplock. ---on 3/15 @ 07:51 writes: Hmm? If all the Moondancer did was use Lash, they would not go anywhere at all, even with a banshee and metawake hitting you. The only problems I could feasibly, honestly see in terms of mana drains is the problem with the Shadowdancer Succumb. Keeping up with the Moondancer's Lash is very doable, even if all they did was just the active drain. ---on 3/15 @ 07:53 writes: Romero, if you read what I actually wrote, you would have noticed I did take into account everything you mentioned when testing on myself, since pixie is the one that strips insomnia and I said I did put up metawake and test it too. ---on 3/15 @ 08:49 writes: I have never had an MD come close to draining me to the extent of just succumb hitting. For example just this evening Succumb first hit 1816:6057 drained. Second hit same thing. This is just passive SD draining on succumb. Not taking into account fae, my own mana draining usage, or the SD actively working to drain. Thats at Trans magic. ---on 3/15 @ 15:24 writes: Succumb drains 15% of max if the target has Trans magic - it is impossible for Succumb to have drained 1815:6057 alone, there must be a mistake in your numbers. ---on 3/15 @ 17:49 writes: The discussion between mana draining capabilities of SD and MDs seems a bit irrelevant in this discussion as both guilds have access to toadcurse and are both better at draining mana than guardians. No one expects a wiccan to only use lash as the entirety of their offense or only use succumb, I'm not sure why that is even up for discussion. Draining mana while under a sleeplock of some sort is a basic, favored tactic that is not available to all tertiaries equally which is generally not an option for celestines and possible, but harder to pull off for nihilists. In essence, regardless of which wiccan guild drains more mana still brings up the same point, toadcurse is an easier state to achieve than an absolve or even wrack, making this buff unnecessary. ---on 3/15 @ 19:54 writes: I am fine with removing dodging. Unlike Absolve and Wrack, the wiccan still has to chase the toad around and stomp on it, often more than once. Using Absolve and Wrack as comparison is as misleading as the whole wiccans draining conversation. Both of those skills are full on instakills. Toad is a chase the person around and hope he doesn't revert before you stomp on him. ---on 3/15 @ 22:44 writes: And if you remove/lessen the ability for a person to "escape" as a toad by hopping around (removing the dodging completely), you are in fact making it much closer to an insta-kill. Just with an extra finishing move at the end which is unstoppable. Upgrading toadcurse IS making it closer to a "full-on instakill," at which point Wiccan mana draining needs to go down significantly. ---on 3/16 @ 01:07 writes: Icewalls are 100% useful in stopping a toad from escaping, no chasing necessary. ---on 3/16 @ 03:55 writes: Even excluding the fact that this is wiccans' only insta (unlike guardians), how many people would be willing to justify something like making inquisition easier than evevery insta kill because it doesn't actually finish them off? If we're being honest, I'm guessing "not many." If toadcurse really makes it so much easier to almost-kill someone than any guardian instakill, that deserves addressing regardless of the fact that toad doesn't actually finish them off without more work.